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today we welcome the fantastic Joshua

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kutcheon - skeptic Oh Josh is a really

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remarkable researcher and author known

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for his insanely well researched books

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I've thrown a few of them up there on

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the screen and on his just vast

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knowledge of all aspects of the

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paranormal this guy as you'll find out

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as we do this show is kind of a walking

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case book of paranormal cases and you

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seem to be able to access those deep

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into your online database there at a

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moment's notice which is so fun

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this interview is long overdue I really

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wanted to have you on last year to talk

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about your book thieves in the night

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amazing book I was late to the party

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maybe we can talk a little bit about

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that I know you have a new book coming

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out on Bigfoot and I want to make sure

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we talk about that I mainly just wanted

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to get you on because I just so admire

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your work so thanks for coming on great

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to talk to you well thanks for the kind

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words I genuinely appreciate it as

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someone who you know was listened to

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skeptical for a long time it it means a

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lot to live out this sort of surreal

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life where your hobbies and your real

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life sort of get mixed together so I

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really appreciate it thank you yeah that

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is a whole funny thing isn't it you know

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because that's really that's really how

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we both are and I think I don't want to

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spend a lot of time going into that but

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because we're both kind of pressed today

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but that'd be a great topic for another

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conversation is you know how we got into

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this and then again like you just said I

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totally relate living up this kind of

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surreal kind of am I really talking to

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this person I mean that's the sense I

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get every time I mean last week I was I

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was talking to dr. Diana Basilica and

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you know I was like wow this is

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fantastic

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but the purpose for your visit today is

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the place you have to go jeopardy a new

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idea that I just invented and you know

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what

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is gonna be good cuz it's really gonna

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move us along quickly which we both need

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and there I have nine topics up on the

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screen

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Big Foot the Pope and E's versus

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abductions creating reality really

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co-creating reality time and space pan

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paranormal that's who you are

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drip drip drip left-hand path and God so

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Josh you get to pick and then we get to

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talk well this is so predictable given

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where I am in my life but it's just

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where my headspace is that lets I'll

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take a Bigfoot for a hundred Alex you

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know I like the pic a little bit

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conservative I would have gone oh wait

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all right everybody so tell us what's

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going on with Bigfoot this new book

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looks sounds fantastic you've dug into

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it really far so maybe tee that up a

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little bit but then just tell us your

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interest in general and your your bottom

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line and what you think Bigfoot is

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because you know if we're gonna play the

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Alex Trebek thing I mean that's it it's

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the question you know as a physical

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beast that walks through the woods you

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know the other and then you could come

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up with another question well you know

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I've been saying this and I think it's a

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really good summation of the project but

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my dear friend Greg Bishop has sort of

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slapped me on the wrist a couple of

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times whenever I invoke this he's like

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how dare you invoke the name of God but

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I feel like cryptozoology especially

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bigfooter he has never had a passport to

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Madone Ian moment I'm I'm not comparing

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the quality of my work to valet or the

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quality of my co-authors work Tim Rinna

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to valet I think that's a that's a

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pretty high bar but in terms of what I

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hope this book will start to try to

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accomplish sort of sits at that same

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intersection of folklore and and modern

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reporting that passport to Macomb you

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did there are so many people who are

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very supportive of the idea that Bigfoot

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is a flesh-and-blood creature and you

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know I think I've often said that I

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think a lot of anomalous topics and

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subjects and researchers have sort of

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Bigfoot Envy like the physical evidence

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is actually quite outstanding but at the

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same time there is because you're really

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cool and I already teed this up you have

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these cases yes hope you know Bigfoot is

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a physical being that you could run into

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in the forest boom hit me with a story

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that really drives that home because you

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got a million of them well I mean if you

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look at sort of the the body of physical

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evidence that's left behind and I think

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it almost even would do a disservice

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just to pick one example but you have

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scat samples you have hair samples you

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have the casts which if you really dig

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down and take a look at some of these

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some of these casts that have been made

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they show not only dermal ridges which

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are the equivalent of you know your

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fingerprints on your toes but also

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specific consistent anatomy in terms of

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mid Parcel breaks across the foot that

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you don't see in human anatomy but you

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do whenever it's one of these giant

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footprints that people find in the woods

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and you know a lot of people will

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misinterpret that they'll say that you

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know I know that ghosts don't leave

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behind footprints which is a horrible

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horrible Mis reading it's an ignorant

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reading of you know sigh phenomena in

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general the idea that something that is

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non-physical can have an impact on our

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environment in fact that was one of the

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earliest ways of ghost hunting was to

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spread out powder on the talcum powder

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on the floor and wait for footprints to

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manifest so the idea that just because

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something can be physical but not

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simultaneously imaginal I think is

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something that the cryptology needs to

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sort of get hip to I've often said that

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the last people to get on the

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consciousness bandwagon are going to be

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the cryptozoologists the ufologists are

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getting there the ghost hunters have

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been there for a long time obviously

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anybody who's interested in ideas like

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time slips or you know near-death

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experiences they've been mired inside

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for a long time but cryptozoology is

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sort of that last holdout that is really

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being super materialistic about this

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let's make sure we tee that up then for

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focus because I'm guilty of doing the

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inside baseball thing so the

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cryptozoology people are out there and

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saying hey look this is real we just

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found this pygmy for lack of a better

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term and McKinney we just found this you

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know very rare you know other thing that

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we never thought we'd find and here we

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found it these creatures can exist for

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thousands of years and so maybe that's

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Bigfoot so that's one camp and then you

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have this other camp that says no no no

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no this is purely interdimensional this

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is Jacques Vallee

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we don't know what it is don't call it

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this or that and then we have even the

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nuts and bolts you will follow gee I

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always hate that term because they're

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really I've never found anyone who's

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really just nuts and bolts you know

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right right great Stan Friedman who just

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passed recently you know oh he's a nuts

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and bolts ufology no he's not he did the

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first book on abductions in the Betty

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and Barney Hill case you can't be more

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outside that you're into the

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consciousness thing than that but

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there's this group will call nuts and

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bolts you apologists and say hey hey hey

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all these reports of Bigfoot and you see

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a beam alight and there's a sighting

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associated with it these are beings that

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are being down from the spaceship and

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come there so you have those three camps

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are there any other major camps that we

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have to kind of parse out and then

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because you jumped right in and said

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okay the cryptozoologists are bringing

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in some good information but they're

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also kind of out to lunch in terms ISM

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yeah you know I actually took a page

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from you're actually literally a page

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from your book I was asked to

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participate two years ago in a

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collection of you authorities UFOs

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reframing the debate and one of the

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things that I took was your philosophy

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and I mentioned you like tributed you

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plenty I promised your philosophy that

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if if materialism was broken then

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everything's back on the table and that

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it's really what sort of even if you

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look at somebody like Stan who tends to

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be more on leave and I know we've sort

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of addressed how nuts and bolts ufology

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is a problematic term but he tends to be

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more of the physical beings coming down

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from outer space camp of thought and yet

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he will endorse the concept of telepathy

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and once you unpack that I mean

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telepathy should not coexist side by

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side with materialism it just shouldn't

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and I've had some people say oh no you

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don't know you're talking about it just

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means that it's just a new thing that's

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added no it doesn't like if I have a

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black-and-white film and I add one color

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I add red it didn't take away black and

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white but it's no longer a

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black-and-white film right it's black

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white and red so the idea that I keep on

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bringing this up with people I got enjoy

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waiting the arguments on Twitter about

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this oh but the idea that we have to

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scrap a lot of the things we've learned

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through the materials paradigm I don't

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think

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necessary I mean I know that if I stick

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my hand in boiling water I'm probably

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gonna get scalded but the same time it

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means that a lot of other possibilities

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are on the table and if you are a

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ufologist who does not think that

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there's some sort of reality to Leppa

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these in these encounters you're dealing

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with a tiny handful of encounters even

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stuff where people see a light in the

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sky they'll often get some sort of

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message some sort of telepathic contact

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even in those cases even in cases where

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people see what appear to be structured

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craft they'll still get these messages

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these intense feelings they'll still

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have synchronicities and manifest in

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their lives they will still like people

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who have experienced in bees and alien

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abduction and very abduction they will

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still have super normal abilities

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manifesting in their lives so if that's

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the case then it doesn't mean that it's

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not little green scientists from another

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planet but why are we so invested in

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that concept if the doors have been

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thrown open in terms of the

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possibilities why are we still so

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married to this very anthropomorphic

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catch-and-release model that a lot of

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ufology is sort of mired in and you see

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that in the Bigfoot thing too I mean the

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sort of logical leaps that people will

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jump through you know you have these

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great footprints that terminate in the

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middle of an open field and the nearest

270
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tree is 200 feet away and they'll be

271
00:10:09,769 --> 00:10:08,519
like oh well they tiptoed backwards

272
00:10:11,060 --> 00:10:09,779
through their tracks that's a real

273
00:10:13,100 --> 00:10:11,070
common thing that people say these

274
00:10:14,990 --> 00:10:13,110
Bigfoot encounters and it's a lot more

275
00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:15,000
parsimonious I think to look at these as

276
00:10:19,009 --> 00:10:17,130
sort of expressions of I mean let's say

277
00:10:22,130 --> 00:10:19,019
reified folklore let's say Union

278
00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:22,140
archetypes rather made flesh Mageau nian

279
00:10:26,300 --> 00:10:23,850
intra dimensional entities any of these

280
00:10:27,740 --> 00:10:26,310
things but you don't have to always work

281
00:10:29,540 --> 00:10:27,750
backwards from the idea that it is a

282
00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:29,550
flesh-and-blood monkey you don't always

283
00:10:32,569 --> 00:10:30,810
have to work backwards thing the idea

284
00:10:35,030 --> 00:10:32,579
that there are flesh-and-blood little

285
00:10:38,689 --> 00:10:35,040
green men coming down to do things once

286
00:10:41,389 --> 00:10:38,699
you realize how broken materialism is

287
00:10:45,650 --> 00:10:41,399
and that's that's much who says it's

288
00:10:47,750 --> 00:10:45,660
awesome tell me your favorite Bigfoot

289
00:10:50,750 --> 00:10:47,760
account and include in there because I

290
00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:50,760
did kind of pump you up and I not

291
00:10:55,129 --> 00:10:53,250
unjustified you're really I think at

292
00:10:57,769 --> 00:10:55,139
this point a master there ferreting out

293
00:11:01,220 --> 00:10:57,779
what accounts we should trust in which

294
00:11:03,259 --> 00:11:01,230
accounts the little suspicious up and a

295
00:11:04,550 --> 00:11:03,269
Bigfoot account that you think sounds

296
00:11:07,460 --> 00:11:04,560
pretty darn reliable

297
00:11:10,340 --> 00:11:07,470
based on your criteria and just kind of

298
00:11:14,330 --> 00:11:10,350
blows you away oh I will weaponize a

299
00:11:15,950 --> 00:11:14,340
well held Bigfoot account against flesh

300
00:11:18,860 --> 00:11:15,960
and blood for pathologists so there's

301
00:11:20,690 --> 00:11:18,870
this particular case of it's called the

302
00:11:24,980 --> 00:11:20,700
ape Canyon incident back and I believe

303
00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:24,990
in 1930s in Washington and Fred Beck was

304
00:11:29,060 --> 00:11:26,610
the primary witness and a lot of his

305
00:11:30,980 --> 00:11:29,070
miners were working their claim they saw

306
00:11:32,829 --> 00:11:30,990
this large hairy hominid in the woods

307
00:11:36,740 --> 00:11:32,839
took some pot shots at it didn't hit it

308
00:11:38,660 --> 00:11:36,750
but later that evening their cabin fell

309
00:11:40,700 --> 00:11:38,670
under siege they were having rocks

310
00:11:42,350 --> 00:11:40,710
thrown at them they had these giant

311
00:11:44,450 --> 00:11:42,360
hairy hands reaching through the you

312
00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:44,460
know the holes in the cabin there was

313
00:11:48,470 --> 00:11:46,050
things running across the roof it's

314
00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:48,480
considered one of the most reliable

315
00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:51,450
stories of Bigfoot attacking human

316
00:11:56,180 --> 00:11:54,570
beings but what tends to get overlooked

317
00:11:58,220 --> 00:11:56,190
time and again by flesh with wood

318
00:12:00,530 --> 00:11:58,230
cryptozoologist is that Fred Beck pinned

319
00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:00,540
a pamphlet he pinned a booklet on the

320
00:12:05,150 --> 00:12:02,610
incident at the end of his life and Beck

321
00:12:07,310 --> 00:12:05,160
had a lifetime of weird things happening

322
00:12:08,690 --> 00:12:07,320
to him he maintained till his dying day

323
00:12:10,250 --> 00:12:08,700
that these were not flesh-and-blood

324
00:12:12,079 --> 00:12:10,260
creatures but rather something more akin

325
00:12:13,370 --> 00:12:12,089
to poltergeist phenomena and if you look

326
00:12:14,060 --> 00:12:13,380
at a lot of things that people attribute

327
00:12:15,350 --> 00:12:14,070
to Bigfoot

328
00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:15,360
there's an entire chapter in the new

329
00:12:18,950 --> 00:12:17,490
book that's just about Bigfoot and

330
00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:18,960
poltergeist phenomena the throwing of

331
00:12:22,730 --> 00:12:20,730
rocks that are warm to the touch

332
00:12:23,660 --> 00:12:22,740
running along roofs tapping on windows

333
00:12:25,010 --> 00:12:23,670
these are all things that you would

334
00:12:26,690 --> 00:12:25,020
normally associate with a haunting but

335
00:12:28,430 --> 00:12:26,700
if people happen to see something large

336
00:12:31,430 --> 00:12:28,440
and hairy they make that Bigfoot jump

337
00:12:32,930 --> 00:12:31,440
but Fred Beck to return to him there are

338
00:12:34,010 --> 00:12:32,940
multiple witnesses in the a Canyon

339
00:12:35,810 --> 00:12:34,020
incident with people with you know

340
00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:35,820
whatever these thing were things were

341
00:12:40,730 --> 00:12:38,850
assaulting the cabin but crypto sobs

342
00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:40,740
Tindall again leave out Fred Beck's own

343
00:12:44,930 --> 00:12:42,690
opinions which is when you're dealing in

344
00:12:48,110 --> 00:12:44,940
anomalies it's disingenuous to pick and

345
00:12:50,540 --> 00:12:48,120
choose what the experiencer says or

346
00:12:52,370 --> 00:12:50,550
their feelings I feel at least but if

347
00:12:53,930 --> 00:12:52,380
you really unpacked the things that

348
00:12:56,329 --> 00:12:53,940
happened around the appian story what

349
00:13:00,079 --> 00:12:56,339
was building up to it the actual

350
00:13:01,970 --> 00:13:00,089
location of the mine was dictated by one

351
00:13:03,199 --> 00:13:01,980
of two different spiritual beings Fred

352
00:13:04,370 --> 00:13:03,209
Beck said he had encountered one I

353
00:13:07,460 --> 00:13:04,380
believe was a Native American guide

354
00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:07,470
another wasn't a lady who he said had

355
00:13:11,660 --> 00:13:09,810
the name Vander White the sort of like

356
00:13:14,060 --> 00:13:11,670
spirit guide that came to him in a

357
00:13:16,699 --> 00:13:14,070
vision and told him that they should

358
00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:16,709
follow a large white arrow in the sky to

359
00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:18,450
find their mining claim

360
00:13:24,140 --> 00:13:21,360
they did and they found it shortly

361
00:13:25,790 --> 00:13:24,150
before they encountered started taking

362
00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:25,800
potshots at this Bigfoot they found a

363
00:13:32,630 --> 00:13:29,370
single Bigfoot footprint in the middle

364
00:13:34,940 --> 00:13:32,640
of a sandbar hundreds of feet from the

365
00:13:36,590 --> 00:13:34,950
shore of the river and these facts get

366
00:13:38,420 --> 00:13:36,600
constantly glossed over because people

367
00:13:40,910 --> 00:13:38,430
seem to just jump right to the ape

368
00:13:42,890 --> 00:13:40,920
attack I mean if memory serves they were

369
00:13:45,950 --> 00:13:42,900
also anomalous sounds coming from

370
00:13:48,050 --> 00:13:45,960
underground which has a lot of hallmarks

371
00:13:50,420 --> 00:13:48,060
of you know old-world fairy lore in

372
00:13:52,130 --> 00:13:50,430
terms of elves no delving and the deeps

373
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:52,140
I don't know what any of this means

374
00:13:54,830 --> 00:13:53,610
I don't think Bigfoot's of fairy I don't

375
00:13:57,140 --> 00:13:54,840
think Bigfoot's an alien I don't know

376
00:13:59,630 --> 00:13:57,150
what any of this means but I know that

377
00:14:01,610 --> 00:13:59,640
there is more ephemera and weirdness

378
00:14:03,140 --> 00:14:01,620
around these things and a lot of

379
00:14:05,090 --> 00:14:03,150
flesh-and-blood crypts are just ones who

380
00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:05,100
want to admit the thing is the

381
00:14:08,690 --> 00:14:06,570
flesh-and-blood model works really well

382
00:14:10,190 --> 00:14:08,700
and somebody sees Bigfoot crossing the

383
00:14:11,930 --> 00:14:10,200
road or someone's out hunting and they

384
00:14:14,060 --> 00:14:11,940
happen to see some sort of large hairy

385
00:14:16,340 --> 00:14:14,070
creature but if you get people who have

386
00:14:18,020 --> 00:14:16,350
had multiple experiences where extended

387
00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:18,030
experiences that's when the

388
00:14:22,580 --> 00:14:19,530
synchronicities kick in that's when

389
00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:22,590
people attribute supernatural abilities

390
00:14:27,010 --> 00:14:24,240
to these things like disappearing like

391
00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:27,020
levitation you know I just put at it uh

392
00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:28,770
writing this books been a little bit

393
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:30,480
like drinking through a hose but I just

394
00:14:34,370 --> 00:14:32,730
added a story of a Bigfoot who jumped

395
00:14:36,470 --> 00:14:34,380
over a guardrail and on the other side

396
00:14:38,300 --> 00:14:36,480
of the guardrail is a 200-foot drop and

397
00:14:40,130 --> 00:14:38,310
you know the people want to say well

398
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:40,140
maybe you know Bigfoot scale it's way

399
00:14:45,140 --> 00:14:42,210
down there or maybe it was able to you

400
00:14:46,940 --> 00:14:45,150
know tuck and roll but it's approaching

401
00:14:50,090 --> 00:14:46,950
how many angels can dance on the head of

402
00:14:52,460 --> 00:14:50,100
the pin levels of excuses for something

403
00:14:54,350 --> 00:14:52,470
that if you were to look at it any other

404
00:14:57,740 --> 00:14:54,360
way would just be generally anomalous

405
00:15:01,460 --> 00:14:57,750
great great great stuff okay that could

406
00:15:05,090 --> 00:15:01,470
be a lead-in to any number of these next

407
00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:05,100
skeptical jeopardy topics in de's versus

408
00:15:13,790 --> 00:15:08,490
abductions great one all right I will

409
00:15:19,610 --> 00:15:13,800
house and E's versus abductions go ahead

410
00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:19,620
you kick this one off well um I think if

411
00:15:23,270 --> 00:15:21,090
the work of Kenneth ring who pointed out

412
00:15:25,070 --> 00:15:23,280
a lot of these similarities I think this

413
00:15:28,190 --> 00:15:25,080
is all really tied up in this sort of

414
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:28,200
intersection of shamanic awakening and

415
00:15:34,069 --> 00:15:31,890
trauma and I mean if anybody is sort of

416
00:15:36,410 --> 00:15:34,079
he is why he would even attempt to

417
00:15:39,170 --> 00:15:36,420
conflate or compare the two I mean you

418
00:15:41,780 --> 00:15:39,180
have bright lights feeling of levitation

419
00:15:43,730 --> 00:15:41,790
there are people and you know alien

420
00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:43,740
abductions who claim to meet or see

421
00:15:48,079 --> 00:15:46,110
loved ones who have passed on not a very

422
00:15:49,790 --> 00:15:48,089
common thing that's talked about but

423
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:49,800
it's there you have the Associated

424
00:15:55,519 --> 00:15:52,290
effects of people who returned from said

425
00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:55,529
encounters with having increased moments

426
00:15:58,069 --> 00:15:56,310
of clairvoyance

427
00:16:00,410 --> 00:15:58,079
synchronicities poltergeist activity

428
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:00,420
manifesting in their homes that's a very

429
00:16:04,250 --> 00:16:02,610
common thing both amongst people who

430
00:16:06,590 --> 00:16:04,260
have had near-death experiences and

431
00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:06,600
people who are experiences of sort of

432
00:16:11,509 --> 00:16:08,910
alien contact phenomena the idea of a

433
00:16:12,850 --> 00:16:11,519
life review is not at all uncommon in

434
00:16:15,410 --> 00:16:12,860
the abduction literature either

435
00:16:17,060 --> 00:16:15,420
and then to say nothing of the sort of

436
00:16:19,220 --> 00:16:17,070
metaphysics that you get into in a lot

437
00:16:21,290 --> 00:16:19,230
of these abduction experiences people

438
00:16:23,540 --> 00:16:21,300
talking about their souls being pulled

439
00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:23,550
out of their bodies or you know them

440
00:16:29,090 --> 00:16:26,880
being shown past lives by whatever these

441
00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:29,100
entities are and that's where I start to

442
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:30,930
push back against again this materialist

443
00:16:36,710 --> 00:16:32,490
idea that it's a little green scientists

444
00:16:38,389 --> 00:16:36,720
seem to be fair human beings have super

445
00:16:40,519 --> 00:16:38,399
normal abilities that's liabilities so

446
00:16:42,139 --> 00:16:40,529
it would stand to reason that perhaps a

447
00:16:43,460 --> 00:16:42,149
race of little green scientists would

448
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:43,470
have those same abilities and perhaps

449
00:16:48,980 --> 00:16:45,930
even have them more developed but it's

450
00:16:50,420 --> 00:16:48,990
always these moments of dream logic I

451
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:50,430
mean there's there's a clarity that

452
00:16:53,810 --> 00:16:51,810
people associate with a lot of these

453
00:16:56,060 --> 00:16:53,820
encounters that's parallel both in the

454
00:16:58,370 --> 00:16:56,070
abduction literature and in you know

455
00:16:59,600 --> 00:16:58,380
dreams and in the near-death experience

456
00:17:02,389 --> 00:16:59,610
so I've talked to so many people who say

457
00:17:03,949 --> 00:17:02,399
it felt more real than real there was a

458
00:17:05,090 --> 00:17:03,959
clarity there was a lucidity to what

459
00:17:07,100 --> 00:17:05,100
they were doing I felt more real in

460
00:17:09,199 --> 00:17:07,110
their average waking life and these are

461
00:17:10,699 --> 00:17:09,209
just all things that consuming we're

462
00:17:12,710 --> 00:17:10,709
sort of bleeding into the pan paranormal

463
00:17:15,289 --> 00:17:12,720
topic here too but these are all things

464
00:17:18,620 --> 00:17:15,299
that that tend to suggest to me that

465
00:17:20,360 --> 00:17:18,630
there is a more non-physical aspect to a

466
00:17:22,789 --> 00:17:20,370
lot of these encounters than mainstream

467
00:17:25,189 --> 00:17:22,799
Ecology would have us believe well there

468
00:17:28,340 --> 00:17:25,199
is so much to pull apart there and I

469
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:28,350
think you know we're in this 25% smear

470
00:17:33,020 --> 00:17:30,570
of consciousness like so if

471
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:33,030
consciousness is huge we're in this 25%

472
00:17:38,510 --> 00:17:35,970
smear if you will that is time-space

473
00:17:42,620 --> 00:17:38,520
right you know we're limited in this

474
00:17:45,350 --> 00:17:42,630
time-space continuum and we understand

475
00:17:46,910 --> 00:17:45,360
at least from that vantage point that

476
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:46,920
other people are talking about being

477
00:17:53,150 --> 00:17:50,010
outside of that so NDE is talking about

478
00:17:54,789 --> 00:17:53,160
being outside of that abduction is

479
00:17:56,810 --> 00:17:54,799
talking about being outside of that

480
00:17:58,669 --> 00:17:56,820
psychedelics you know all these people

481
00:18:00,740 --> 00:17:58,679
are talking about being outside of

482
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:00,750
time-space and we know that from the

483
00:18:05,570 --> 00:18:02,850
language that comes back they say things

484
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:05,580
like it was five minutes you know in

485
00:18:09,710 --> 00:18:07,770
earth time but there it seemed like a

486
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:09,720
month there's no way I could have done

487
00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:11,850
everything that I did their language is

488
00:18:17,180 --> 00:18:14,510
there is a different time-space reality

489
00:18:20,060 --> 00:18:17,190
and then even at the very beginning of

490
00:18:21,919 --> 00:18:20,070
the NDE there's a different space

491
00:18:24,799 --> 00:18:21,929
reality and that people are immediately

492
00:18:27,380 --> 00:18:24,809
above their body right so that these are

493
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:27,390
medical reports that are coming back by

494
00:18:31,610 --> 00:18:30,330
our most trusted medical professionals

495
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:31,620
and they just breathe they always

496
00:18:34,970 --> 00:18:33,450
breathe by that part of the story here's

497
00:18:37,909 --> 00:18:34,980
what they observed here's what they said

498
00:18:41,990 --> 00:18:37,919
you said run that past me again right

499
00:18:44,060 --> 00:18:42,000
right and how does vision work from up

500
00:18:46,070 --> 00:18:44,070
there and how does hearing work from up

501
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:46,080
there let alone memory and all the rest

502
00:18:50,390 --> 00:18:48,330
that I'm gonna push you on this a little

503
00:18:54,500 --> 00:18:50,400
bit further because everything you said

504
00:18:57,530 --> 00:18:54,510
is absolutely true vital important and I

505
00:19:01,400 --> 00:18:57,540
want to push past that because datasets

506
00:19:03,470 --> 00:19:01,410
that that kind of intrigue me lie in for

507
00:19:06,409 --> 00:19:03,480
example ray Hernandez goes out and does

508
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:06,419
this first academic survey of all these

509
00:19:10,909 --> 00:19:07,890
people who have claimed to have had

510
00:19:13,970 --> 00:19:10,919
encounters with ET shorthand there and

511
00:19:16,190 --> 00:19:13,980
his big takeaway is stop calling these

512
00:19:18,350 --> 00:19:16,200
abductions these are spiritually

513
00:19:20,210 --> 00:19:18,360
transformative experiences and he's

514
00:19:22,130 --> 00:19:20,220
saying this isn't just my opinion this

515
00:19:23,630 --> 00:19:22,140
is what the data shows if you're just

516
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:23,640
going to take the bulk of the data yeah

517
00:19:27,620 --> 00:19:25,650
there are these scary abductions there

518
00:19:29,900 --> 00:19:27,630
but the majority of them 66% are

519
00:19:34,100 --> 00:19:29,910
spiritually transformative they're okay

520
00:19:37,580 --> 00:19:34,110
with it they've invited it now the other

521
00:19:39,380 --> 00:19:37,590
data set that I jump over to is the dr.

522
00:19:40,789 --> 00:19:39,390
Jeff long radiation oncologist

523
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:40,799
well-known near-death experience

524
00:19:46,580 --> 00:19:43,890
researcher one of many who's you know

525
00:19:49,250 --> 00:19:46,590
publishes peer-reviewed medically

526
00:19:50,330 --> 00:19:49,260
reviewed research but he's collected the

527
00:19:52,820 --> 00:19:50,340
largest database of near-death

528
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:52,830
experiences that anyone can go access

529
00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:55,530
and look up and here's the data that I

530
00:19:59,210 --> 00:19:57,090
keep pounding on everyone's head

531
00:20:01,070 --> 00:19:59,220
ray great they're spiritually

532
00:20:02,900 --> 00:20:01,080
transformative experiences kind of along

533
00:20:04,310 --> 00:20:02,910
the lines of what you're saying ray is

534
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:04,320
drawing all these parallels and he's

535
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:06,090
saying are these similar aren't these

536
00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:09,090
two similar is in the YZ and these alien

537
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:11,760
encounter experiences and I'm pulling

538
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:13,410
back and go yeah they're similar in a

539
00:20:17,810 --> 00:20:14,850
lot of those ways but aren't they

540
00:20:20,810 --> 00:20:17,820
different in ray and your body of work

541
00:20:23,630 --> 00:20:20,820
you have 10% that are my labs you have

542
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:23,640
sexual encounters involuntary sexual

543
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:26,010
encounters you have reptilians raping

544
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:28,770
people there's none of that in you know

545
00:20:33,290 --> 00:20:31,050
Jeff hasn't stopped collecting NDE

546
00:20:35,300 --> 00:20:33,300
accounts that there's none of those in

547
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:35,310
there there's you know my lab accounts

548
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:37,770
and if you really carefully look at the

549
00:20:44,990 --> 00:20:41,330
NDE stuff it's saying some things

550
00:20:47,660 --> 00:20:45,000
differently about in particular you know

551
00:20:49,610 --> 00:20:47,670
Jeff's latest book is about God and

552
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:49,620
people freaked out when they hear the

553
00:20:53,690 --> 00:20:51,930
word god of course but I love what Jeff

554
00:20:55,730 --> 00:20:53,700
is saying there he's saying look I just

555
00:20:57,050 --> 00:20:55,740
have to report this in the same way that

556
00:20:59,390 --> 00:20:57,060
you're talking about your methodology

557
00:21:03,050 --> 00:20:59,400
he's saying I have to report this

558
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:03,060
because it's being under reported the

559
00:21:07,130 --> 00:21:05,370
accounts of people encountering what

560
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:07,140
they understand to be God not a

561
00:21:12,770 --> 00:21:09,930
Christian God not a Jewish God you know

562
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:12,780
not a religious guy just sometimes being

563
00:21:17,510 --> 00:21:14,970
a spirit you know sometimes more of a

564
00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:17,520
Christian or other religious trappings

565
00:21:22,580 --> 00:21:19,710
but they somehow feel that there's more

566
00:21:24,500 --> 00:21:22,590
than that but the point is that this is

567
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:24,510
more commonly reported than the tunnel

568
00:21:31,700 --> 00:21:28,050
is for example and I'm pushing you I

569
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:31,710
guess to that level three of saying okay

570
00:21:38,660 --> 00:21:35,610
I get the pan paranormal undoubtedly

571
00:21:41,330 --> 00:21:38,670
there's some aspect to that but are we

572
00:21:44,710 --> 00:21:41,340
at a point where we can begin mapping

573
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:44,720
this extended consciousness along this

574
00:21:50,660 --> 00:21:47,490
access which is super important because

575
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:50,670
if there is if there is a God up at the

576
00:21:55,730 --> 00:21:52,890
top of the heap we need to figure that

577
00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:55,740
out soon you know that's that's a really

578
00:22:00,320 --> 00:21:58,290
great question and as strongly as I feel

579
00:22:01,910 --> 00:22:00,330
about sort of going that pan paranormal

580
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:01,920
route I also have a problem with the

581
00:22:06,140 --> 00:22:03,450
certainty fetish that a lot of people

582
00:22:09,020 --> 00:22:06,150
have especially the idea that even if a

583
00:22:10,499 --> 00:22:09,030
significant portion of genuinely strange

584
00:22:15,930 --> 00:22:10,509
or genuine I guess

585
00:22:17,099 --> 00:22:15,940
say contact experiences are you know

586
00:22:18,959 --> 00:22:17,109
spiritual that doesn't mean that's

587
00:22:21,029 --> 00:22:18,969
describing the entire bulk of the

588
00:22:23,459 --> 00:22:21,039
phenomena I mean I feel like a majority

589
00:22:26,039 --> 00:22:23,469
of UFO sightings UFOs in general a

590
00:22:27,719 --> 00:22:26,049
majority are misidentification then

591
00:22:30,089 --> 00:22:27,729
probably the next most common thing is

592
00:22:31,739 --> 00:22:30,099
some sort of testing of an orthodox

593
00:22:34,889 --> 00:22:31,749
craft then you're going to looking at

594
00:22:37,019 --> 00:22:34,899
psy phenomena spirit phenomena natural

595
00:22:38,339 --> 00:22:37,029
but misunderstood phenomena we like you

596
00:22:39,779 --> 00:22:38,349
know some sort of weather phenomena we

597
00:22:41,129 --> 00:22:39,789
have quite a better grasp on and then

598
00:22:42,239 --> 00:22:41,139
perhaps a portion that's also

599
00:22:44,159 --> 00:22:42,249
extraterrestrial the idea that

600
00:22:46,589 --> 00:22:44,169
everything has to be all one thing or

601
00:22:49,409 --> 00:22:46,599
another thing I think a lot of anomalous

602
00:22:51,319 --> 00:22:49,419
--tz-- should get away from and for me

603
00:22:53,999 --> 00:22:51,329
it's always been about giving voice to

604
00:22:55,529 --> 00:22:54,009
ideas that are less popular the cause

605
00:22:58,619 --> 00:22:55,539
they're less popular just to try to sort

606
00:23:00,389 --> 00:22:58,629
of balance the conversation out and you

607
00:23:02,609 --> 00:23:00,399
know as far as how these things manifest

608
00:23:04,559 --> 00:23:02,619
and look differently in you know from

609
00:23:06,889 --> 00:23:04,569
what Hernandez is saying most of these

610
00:23:11,449 --> 00:23:06,899
encounters have some sort of positive

611
00:23:14,129 --> 00:23:11,459
spiritual component I really see strong

612
00:23:15,989 --> 00:23:14,139
parallels between altered states of

613
00:23:18,299 --> 00:23:15,999
consciousness and these experiences and

614
00:23:20,309 --> 00:23:18,309
you can have good trips and you can have

615
00:23:22,319 --> 00:23:20,319
bad trips it can be the exact same thing

616
00:23:24,180 --> 00:23:22,329
but it's what you're bringing to the

617
00:23:26,189 --> 00:23:24,190
dance that sort of influences the

618
00:23:29,399 --> 00:23:26,199
direction that these particular things

619
00:23:31,649 --> 00:23:29,409
go in in terms of what I want to do and

620
00:23:33,689 --> 00:23:31,659
why I find myself so passionate about

621
00:23:35,659 --> 00:23:33,699
this is because yes I mean a lot of this

622
00:23:38,719 --> 00:23:35,669
implies that there is some sort of

623
00:23:41,309 --> 00:23:38,729
objective reality to a lot of these

624
00:23:44,099 --> 00:23:41,319
religious concepts about you know the

625
00:23:46,769 --> 00:23:44,109
again the objective reality of God the

626
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:46,779
objective reality of morality and I

627
00:23:50,999 --> 00:23:48,369
think that if you're looking at stuff

628
00:23:53,969 --> 00:23:51,009
like alien abductions and you don't wind

629
00:23:56,579 --> 00:23:53,979
up needy in psy and metaphysics I think

630
00:23:59,159 --> 00:23:56,589
you're doing it really wrong at some

631
00:24:01,019 --> 00:23:59,169
point um but you know as far as the

632
00:24:03,809 --> 00:24:01,029
MyLab thing you also got to consider

633
00:24:05,909 --> 00:24:03,819
that I mean it's commonly held knowledge

634
00:24:07,499 --> 00:24:05,919
or at least I think it is that you never

635
00:24:09,569 --> 00:24:07,509
let a good crisis go to waste if you're

636
00:24:12,659 --> 00:24:09,579
in a position of power and I feel like

637
00:24:14,989 --> 00:24:12,669
if perhaps there is an objective reality

638
00:24:17,069 --> 00:24:14,999
to these sort of interactions that

639
00:24:18,599 --> 00:24:17,079
experiences abductions whatever you want

640
00:24:21,059 --> 00:24:18,609
to call it if there is an objective

641
00:24:22,620 --> 00:24:21,069
reality to that and then of course it's

642
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:22,630
going to be capitalized upon

643
00:24:29,190 --> 00:24:26,890
uh to sort of Gaslight individuals if

644
00:24:31,260 --> 00:24:29,200
you want to abduct them for purposes of

645
00:24:33,810 --> 00:24:31,270
testing or for any number of reasons

646
00:24:35,940 --> 00:24:33,820
honestly I think the idea that it would

647
00:24:37,740 --> 00:24:35,950
be employed to that end is patently

648
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:37,750
obvious similarly I've often wondered

649
00:24:42,420 --> 00:24:40,450
aloud if the real reason that the

650
00:24:44,550 --> 00:24:42,430
government doesn't open up about UFOs is

651
00:24:46,230 --> 00:24:44,560
not because it's they're aliens from

652
00:24:49,350 --> 00:24:46,240
another planet but what if they really

653
00:24:52,620 --> 00:24:49,360
truly understand the non-physical

654
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:52,630
reality of whatever is happening that I

655
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:55,330
mean I can't imagine the loss of control

656
00:24:58,140 --> 00:24:56,530
that would happen if the government came

657
00:25:01,410 --> 00:24:58,150
out and said yeah you know what there is

658
00:25:04,050 --> 00:25:01,420
a god and and you know we are not the

659
00:25:05,670 --> 00:25:04,060
sole arbiters of your destiny it's a

660
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:05,680
part of you continues on after you die

661
00:25:09,420 --> 00:25:07,570
the control mechanism is lost

662
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:09,430
right because government and power is

663
00:25:12,390 --> 00:25:11,290
predicated on physical violence at the

664
00:25:15,060 --> 00:25:12,400
end of the day if you don't pay your

665
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:15,070
parking tickets they can come bodily

666
00:25:18,690 --> 00:25:16,690
arrest you and if you resist arrest they

667
00:25:20,070 --> 00:25:18,700
can put a bullet in your head but when

668
00:25:22,350 --> 00:25:20,080
you realize that you are more than a

669
00:25:24,060 --> 00:25:22,360
meat suit even that power just

670
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:24,070
completely dissolves and I've wondered

671
00:25:27,570 --> 00:25:25,450
if that's not the real reason that we've

672
00:25:30,660 --> 00:25:27,580
had secrecy surrounding us those for so

673
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:30,670
long I love that I love that so I tell

674
00:25:36,750 --> 00:25:33,490
you what let me pick okay the next one

675
00:25:39,780 --> 00:25:36,760
already because I think it fits right

676
00:25:42,410 --> 00:25:39,790
into that and that is I'm gonna pick the

677
00:25:44,940 --> 00:25:42,420
left hand path because I think this

678
00:25:48,570 --> 00:25:44,950
understanding that you're kind of

679
00:25:51,150 --> 00:25:48,580
alluding to is really misunderstood by a

680
00:25:52,650 --> 00:25:51,160
lot of people and I love were you

681
00:25:54,780 --> 00:25:52,660
brought us right there at the end in

682
00:25:56,340 --> 00:25:54,790
terms of the government and we all know

683
00:25:58,020 --> 00:25:56,350
we don't know what that means in terms

684
00:26:00,590 --> 00:25:58,030
of government I don't know what right I

685
00:26:03,900 --> 00:26:00,600
just I was just gonna give a warning

686
00:26:07,650 --> 00:26:03,910
during this entire show any term that we

687
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:07,660
use we have no idea what it means when

688
00:26:11,610 --> 00:26:09,610
we say people we don't know what that

689
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:11,620
means when we say consciousness we don't

690
00:26:15,330 --> 00:26:12,730
know what that means

691
00:26:17,820 --> 00:26:15,340
alien Bigfoot all of them so add to the

692
00:26:19,620 --> 00:26:17,830
list government we don't know what that

693
00:26:22,770 --> 00:26:19,630
means I'm I'm being facetious but this

694
00:26:24,390 --> 00:26:22,780
idea of the left-hand path I think is

695
00:26:26,310 --> 00:26:24,400
misunderstood because one way of

696
00:26:28,290 --> 00:26:26,320
understanding it is hey somebody's got

697
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:28,300
to control the world and if you don't

698
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:31,810
buy off on that right away then just

699
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:34,210
turn on the YouTube news reading look

700
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:36,490
all over the world and see where what

701
00:26:40,919 --> 00:26:38,890
chaos looks like and you go I don't want

702
00:26:43,799 --> 00:26:40,929
any of that and then you said well you

703
00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:43,809
know how much control you know jack

704
00:26:48,870 --> 00:26:46,510
booting am I am I gonna put up with in

705
00:26:51,450 --> 00:26:48,880
terms of for someone to be in control

706
00:26:52,950 --> 00:26:51,460
someone to run things and we look at all

707
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:52,960
the people in the world that are out

708
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:54,730
there and we don't agree with we don't

709
00:26:57,450 --> 00:26:55,690
know why they're causing such a

710
00:26:59,669 --> 00:26:57,460
commotion and we really kind of get them

711
00:27:01,530 --> 00:26:59,679
off the stage kind of thing so the

712
00:27:03,060 --> 00:27:01,540
left-hand path tell me what you're

713
00:27:05,790 --> 00:27:03,070
thinking tell me the connection with

714
00:27:08,450 --> 00:27:05,800
that with just control and the good

715
00:27:10,890 --> 00:27:08,460
parts of control also with the Gnostic

716
00:27:13,260 --> 00:27:10,900
create better than the Creator gods I

717
00:27:16,460 --> 00:27:13,270
think people don't really understand the

718
00:27:19,380 --> 00:27:16,470
predicament that you're in if you don't

719
00:27:22,110 --> 00:27:19,390
say that you have some kind of control

720
00:27:24,030 --> 00:27:22,120
over your destiny the god thing is

721
00:27:27,419 --> 00:27:24,040
awesome but it's really really

722
00:27:29,940 --> 00:27:27,429
challenging to to say I have no agency

723
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:29,950
in this world I'm not going to try and

724
00:27:34,380 --> 00:27:31,330
make things better I'm only interested

725
00:27:36,870 --> 00:27:34,390
in merging with the Godhead and you know

726
00:27:39,419 --> 00:27:36,880
most of us aren't there most of us are

727
00:27:42,299 --> 00:27:39,429
living a left-hand path kind of

728
00:27:44,610 --> 00:27:42,309
existence but what we really shy away

729
00:27:47,850 --> 00:27:44,620
for is when we see the extreme end of

730
00:27:50,669 --> 00:27:47,860
the left-hand path and we see the evil

731
00:27:52,590 --> 00:27:50,679
that we see the pedo Pope and we see you

732
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:52,600
know the horrible things that are done I

733
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:54,730
always say the pedo thing because it

734
00:27:59,450 --> 00:27:56,650
just makes it clear you know someone

735
00:28:02,700 --> 00:27:59,460
who's taking a two-year-old child and

736
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:02,710
using them sexually and then killing

737
00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:07,090
them we can all go oh alright I do get

738
00:28:11,549 --> 00:28:09,130
that there is evil but of course there's

739
00:28:14,700 --> 00:28:11,559
a lot of other evil that is you know

740
00:28:17,940 --> 00:28:14,710
drone striking wedding parties in Yemen

741
00:28:23,130 --> 00:28:17,950
ain't so cool either so the left-hand

742
00:28:26,970 --> 00:28:23,140
path is wide I mean it's so much to

743
00:28:29,730 --> 00:28:26,980
unpack there I think I've tended to be

744
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:29,740
less on and this must seem super ironic

745
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:31,450
for somebody interested in these topics

746
00:28:36,930 --> 00:28:33,850
and as a longtime listener of skeptic oh

747
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:36,940
I tend to be less conspiratorial II

748
00:28:42,060 --> 00:28:39,970
oriented not I'd ever deny that it's not

749
00:28:44,070 --> 00:28:42,070
happening and I think a lot of times

750
00:28:46,110 --> 00:28:44,080
most of what I just feel like I am is

751
00:28:47,490 --> 00:28:46,120
contrarian so if there's somebody saying

752
00:28:48,659 --> 00:28:47,500
it's all conspiracy I'll say I don't

753
00:28:51,169 --> 00:28:48,669
know about that and if somebody saying

754
00:28:54,870 --> 00:28:51,179
there aren't any conspiracies I'll say

755
00:28:58,440 --> 00:28:54,880
um because I do think there is a not

756
00:29:01,730 --> 00:28:58,450
insignificant portion of nihilistic

757
00:29:04,610 --> 00:29:01,740
action and behavior and senseless banal

758
00:29:07,830 --> 00:29:04,620
behavior out there in the world that

759
00:29:09,330 --> 00:29:07,840
there isn't any architecture behind and

760
00:29:11,940 --> 00:29:09,340
I do think that's frightening I do think

761
00:29:13,799 --> 00:29:11,950
that we graft some of that on there at

762
00:29:16,260 --> 00:29:13,809
the same time as you jump in there

763
00:29:18,330 --> 00:29:16,270
oh sure deconstruct that because don't

764
00:29:21,750 --> 00:29:18,340
we run into the same problem with

765
00:29:23,580 --> 00:29:21,760
materialism there if we understand that

766
00:29:26,070 --> 00:29:23,590
there is this extended consciousness

767
00:29:27,810 --> 00:29:26,080
that is influencing and how many angels

768
00:29:31,500 --> 00:29:27,820
on the head of the pin kind of thing

769
00:29:34,409 --> 00:29:31,510
then isn't the architecture always at

770
00:29:37,470 --> 00:29:34,419
play can we really say oh no he was just

771
00:29:39,990 --> 00:29:37,480
free aging out there as he was doing his

772
00:29:42,690 --> 00:29:40,000
serial killing thing I don't know

773
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:42,700
I don't above so below it doesn't end

774
00:29:46,770 --> 00:29:44,650
you can't you can't draw the line real

775
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:46,780
clear I think we all believe that it's

776
00:29:50,100 --> 00:29:48,730
to some degree I mean if you look at the

777
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:50,110
sort of language that we use I was

778
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:51,850
beside myself I don't know what came

779
00:29:54,390 --> 00:29:52,330
over me

780
00:29:57,230 --> 00:29:54,400
you know it all implies that you're sort

781
00:29:59,520 --> 00:29:57,240
of ceding control of your own

782
00:30:00,870 --> 00:29:59,530
sovereignty over to something else even

783
00:30:03,659 --> 00:30:00,880
if it's just for a split second and you

784
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:03,669
act impulsively and you know you're

785
00:30:08,070 --> 00:30:06,130
right I think that a lot of materialism

786
00:30:09,570 --> 00:30:08,080
has sort of given permission for a lot

787
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:09,580
of this bad behavior to take place I

788
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:11,770
really think that's that's reality as

789
00:30:16,890 --> 00:30:14,890
well not to say nothing of the fact that

790
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:16,900
you know the opposite if you were

791
00:30:20,730 --> 00:30:18,850
overzealous in terms of your religion

792
00:30:22,380 --> 00:30:20,740
obviously that can lead to some some

793
00:30:24,030 --> 00:30:22,390
poor behavior as well because again it's

794
00:30:26,610 --> 00:30:24,040
the certainty fetish that people have

795
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:26,620
honestly I've often thought one of the

796
00:30:29,970 --> 00:30:27,730
best things that could happen for the

797
00:30:31,409 --> 00:30:29,980
world is you know if everybody if

798
00:30:34,169 --> 00:30:31,419
everybody just like him and say am I the

799
00:30:36,030 --> 00:30:34,179
[\h__\h] well today you know that's

800
00:30:37,380 --> 00:30:36,040
that's what I tried I try to do that

801
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:37,390
plenty on my own of course me there's

802
00:30:40,740 --> 00:30:38,770
something to be said for you know not

803
00:30:43,620 --> 00:30:40,750
constantly being a food sitter but I've

804
00:30:45,900 --> 00:30:43,630
said this is a very thorny question and

805
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:45,910
I don't I don't even know if I'm enough

806
00:30:51,539 --> 00:30:48,850
of the deep thinker to to uh to sort of

807
00:30:52,710 --> 00:30:51,549
even begin to unpack it honestly so

808
00:30:53,909 --> 00:30:52,720
talking about in terms of whether or not

809
00:30:55,950 --> 00:30:53,919
there's always architecture behind

810
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:55,960
things there's a there's a new book

811
00:30:59,760 --> 00:30:57,250
that's out or a relatively new book

812
00:31:01,350 --> 00:30:59,770
that's out about retrocausality by Erik

813
00:31:03,289 --> 00:31:01,360
Warrick oh I don't think you've had Eric

814
00:31:06,510 --> 00:31:03,299
on the show yet I did

815
00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:06,520
okay I'm actually seeing Eric and

816
00:31:11,820 --> 00:31:08,110
Maryland's leaking them I'm leaving from

817
00:31:13,380 --> 00:31:11,830
here to go to the airport and in one of

818
00:31:15,419 --> 00:31:13,390
his interviews he said that he is

819
00:31:19,169 --> 00:31:15,429
playing with the idea that every dream

820
00:31:21,570 --> 00:31:19,179
is a richer causal or prophetic dream

821
00:31:23,190 --> 00:31:21,580
and I just I don't I don't particularly

822
00:31:24,510 --> 00:31:23,200
see that being the case because I mean

823
00:31:25,860 --> 00:31:24,520
obviously there are some dreams that I

824
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:25,870
think that if you're paying attention to

825
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:28,330
your own internal life but also sort of

826
00:31:32,820 --> 00:31:30,370
the literature yes there are dreams that

827
00:31:34,529 --> 00:31:32,830
are significant and they they could do

828
00:31:36,539 --> 00:31:34,539
for shout of things but they're also

829
00:31:38,430 --> 00:31:36,549
dreams where you you know walk into the

830
00:31:41,130 --> 00:31:38,440
bathroom and you see your mother with

831
00:31:44,659 --> 00:31:41,140
JME on her head and she sings you know

832
00:31:48,419 --> 00:31:44,669
the the Pennsylvania polka to you and

833
00:31:50,250 --> 00:31:48,429
and and this corresponds to a lot of

834
00:31:52,769 --> 00:31:50,260
indigenous ideas of there being big

835
00:31:53,730 --> 00:31:52,779
dreams and little dreams and big dreams

836
00:31:54,990 --> 00:31:53,740
are the dreams that mean something

837
00:31:56,519 --> 00:31:55,000
little dreams are the dreams where

838
00:31:57,899 --> 00:31:56,529
you're actually processing stuff and I

839
00:31:59,310 --> 00:31:57,909
wonder if sometimes our personal

840
00:32:01,370 --> 00:31:59,320
behavior doesn't fall under those lines

841
00:32:04,620 --> 00:32:01,380
I don't think it all has to be

842
00:32:08,039 --> 00:32:04,630
constantly motivated by something

843
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:08,049
our bad behaviors or our behaviors in

844
00:32:13,130 --> 00:32:10,210
general I think that sometimes there

845
00:32:15,450 --> 00:32:13,140
might be a very materialist kind of

846
00:32:18,029 --> 00:32:15,460
autopilot that just kicks on and we do

847
00:32:19,950 --> 00:32:18,039
things we act just elfish Lee but I

848
00:32:22,610 --> 00:32:19,960
think sometimes it's it's it's motivated

849
00:32:25,500 --> 00:32:22,620
by something a little bit more

850
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:25,510
non-physical i I'm not sure where I draw

851
00:32:29,519 --> 00:32:27,130
that line in terms of distinctions

852
00:32:32,549 --> 00:32:29,529
myself I mean I I would like to think

853
00:32:35,909 --> 00:32:32,559
that me not wanting to you know get up

854
00:32:36,810 --> 00:32:35,919
and get another beer from the fridge I

855
00:32:40,830 --> 00:32:36,820
would like to think that that's

856
00:32:43,789 --> 00:32:40,840
motivated by pure materialist motives of

857
00:32:45,690 --> 00:32:43,799
laziness and you know calorie calorie

858
00:32:47,870 --> 00:32:45,700
restriction or in a calorie restriction

859
00:32:50,159 --> 00:32:47,880
book you know not expending energy as

860
00:32:51,659 --> 00:32:50,169
opposed to something that's like some

861
00:32:53,850 --> 00:32:51,669
sort of actual moral defect but who

862
00:32:55,110 --> 00:32:53,860
knows I mean I think sometimes it might

863
00:32:57,149 --> 00:32:55,120
be one sometimes it might be the other

864
00:32:58,889 --> 00:32:57,159
and maybe it's always the same thing

865
00:33:01,740 --> 00:32:58,899
maybe it's not I just I don't know if I

866
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:01,750
can put a real pin in that in terms of

867
00:33:05,279 --> 00:33:03,250
how I feel that's another rambling

868
00:33:07,649 --> 00:33:05,289
response for you but now it's it's

869
00:33:10,019 --> 00:33:07,659
pretty good one because if you're not

870
00:33:11,330 --> 00:33:10,029
rambling on this stuff then you haven't

871
00:33:13,510 --> 00:33:11,340
thought of it

872
00:33:16,130 --> 00:33:13,520
your thing of the certainty model

873
00:33:18,020 --> 00:33:16,140
there's just no way to find certainty

874
00:33:19,370 --> 00:33:18,030
here I'm just gonna throw out another

875
00:33:20,810 --> 00:33:19,380
thing people are gonna get tired of

876
00:33:22,490 --> 00:33:20,820
hearing this because I get stuck on

877
00:33:24,830 --> 00:33:22,500
these things until I can get them out

878
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:24,840
and and I just love talking to really

879
00:33:29,270 --> 00:33:27,210
smart people about him because hint hint

880
00:33:32,990 --> 00:33:29,280
this is what's kept gos really about for

881
00:33:34,970 --> 00:33:33,000
me is my journey my learning by talking

882
00:33:36,710 --> 00:33:34,980
to other people like you so you know the

883
00:33:38,930 --> 00:33:36,720
other data point that really seems

884
00:33:41,390 --> 00:33:38,940
interesting to me is a guy named dr.

885
00:33:42,950 --> 00:33:41,400
gregory shushan have you heard of him it

886
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:42,960
sounds familiar I cannot tell you

887
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:44,490
anything about him he's a near-death

888
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:46,770
experience researcher who really took a

889
00:33:51,740 --> 00:33:49,290
different angle on this he's very much

890
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:51,750
of an academic and he's interested in

891
00:34:00,260 --> 00:33:54,330
religion so he did a cross-cultural

892
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:00,270
cross temporal look at Indies so ancient

893
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:02,730
religions as pertaining a gypped Greece

894
00:34:10,700 --> 00:34:06,210
you know all these Buddhism and his big

895
00:34:14,119 --> 00:34:10,710
takeaway is hey what if NDEs

896
00:34:16,430 --> 00:34:14,129
are the basis for all religions and of

897
00:34:18,879 --> 00:34:16,440
course they get socially engineered and

898
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:18,889
used as control mechanisms and you know

899
00:34:24,409 --> 00:34:21,810
co-opted for the culture all these other

900
00:34:26,419 --> 00:34:24,419
things but at the heart of it like the

901
00:34:28,909 --> 00:34:26,429
one thing you said that I think is so

902
00:34:32,659 --> 00:34:28,919
true is that most of us can't argue with

903
00:34:34,879 --> 00:34:32,669
the moral imperative that we do feel

904
00:34:36,590 --> 00:34:34,889
like we know what's right and wrong we

905
00:34:38,810 --> 00:34:36,600
know who's sitting on our shoulder

906
00:34:41,149 --> 00:34:38,820
telling us the right thing to do well

907
00:34:44,750 --> 00:34:41,159
that's right out of the near-death

908
00:34:48,409 --> 00:34:44,760
experience aspect of being the judge of

909
00:34:51,919 --> 00:34:48,419
your own soul so again the co-opted

910
00:34:55,250 --> 00:34:51,929
religious thing is God will judge you

911
00:34:57,590 --> 00:34:55,260
and send you down to hell but the real

912
00:35:01,610 --> 00:34:57,600
account says well actually the way it

913
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:01,620
works is you will evaluate yourself and

914
00:35:07,550 --> 00:35:04,890
you will say mmm Josh you did really

915
00:35:08,900 --> 00:35:07,560
well over here but you know maybe you

916
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:08,910
could have done a little better maybe

917
00:35:13,820 --> 00:35:11,010
that wasn't your best moment and you go

918
00:35:16,190 --> 00:35:13,830
God to say that that's the least yeah oh

919
00:35:19,670 --> 00:35:16,200
I'm so well don't worry about it it's

920
00:35:21,350 --> 00:35:19,680
okay you know but you come back and what

921
00:35:23,500 --> 00:35:21,360
you share with the tribe and what gets

922
00:35:25,220 --> 00:35:23,510
incorporated into our religion is

923
00:35:28,310 --> 00:35:25,230
everything we do

924
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:28,320
matters and we know what's right and

925
00:35:33,530 --> 00:35:31,170
wrong and we will be judged even by

926
00:35:36,890 --> 00:35:33,540
ourselves on our ultimate soul journey

927
00:35:39,650 --> 00:35:36,900
what that means so that's what I'm

928
00:35:42,770 --> 00:35:39,660
picking apart here because it seems to

929
00:35:45,589 --> 00:35:42,780
be one of those jigsaw pieces that falls

930
00:35:47,930 --> 00:35:45,599
into place and starts making a lot of

931
00:35:49,940 --> 00:35:47,940
things make more sense including the

932
00:35:52,490 --> 00:35:49,950
left-hand path because the left-hand

933
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:52,500
path is our desire that we all have to

934
00:35:58,460 --> 00:35:56,010
run away from that aspect of our soul

935
00:36:00,680 --> 00:35:58,470
which we we have to we can't live in

936
00:36:04,609 --> 00:36:00,690
this world and and live in that other

937
00:36:07,339 --> 00:36:04,619
world too so more to unpack there but

938
00:36:09,829 --> 00:36:07,349
give it your best shot as we wrap this

939
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:09,839
thing up you know I think that if you

940
00:36:14,810 --> 00:36:12,570
look at the guiding ethos that is almost

941
00:36:16,490 --> 00:36:14,820
universally behind every NDE is is the

942
00:36:18,740 --> 00:36:16,500
fundament ality of love and the idea

943
00:36:21,230 --> 00:36:18,750
that the concept of love is somehow

944
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:21,240
biologically motivated I still this

945
00:36:23,660 --> 00:36:22,650
doesn't pass the smell test for me I

946
00:36:25,190 --> 00:36:23,670
don't think it really passes the smell

947
00:36:28,250 --> 00:36:25,200
test for anybody as you've eluded to

948
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:28,260
multiple times but I think once you

949
00:36:33,290 --> 00:36:30,450
realize that that is a fundamental and

950
00:36:35,319 --> 00:36:33,300
that that is the most important thing

951
00:36:38,809 --> 00:36:35,329
that it's pretty easy to see what is

952
00:36:41,510 --> 00:36:38,819
anti love right selfishness is anti love

953
00:36:44,839 --> 00:36:41,520
hurting others as anti love hurting you

954
00:36:47,270 --> 00:36:44,849
know hurting yourself is anti love and I

955
00:36:49,819 --> 00:36:47,280
think once you put that together I think

956
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:49,829
that's where the real moral imperative

957
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:52,650
narrative starts to emerge and I know

958
00:37:00,319 --> 00:36:55,530
this kind of sappy kind of new agey kind

959
00:37:04,609 --> 00:37:00,329
of thing but it really is fundamental to

960
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:04,619
all these different experiences and you

961
00:37:10,550 --> 00:37:07,770
know as far as the idea that Indies are

962
00:37:12,859 --> 00:37:10,560
sort of the genesis of a lot of major

963
00:37:14,780 --> 00:37:12,869
religions I think that makes an

964
00:37:16,069 --> 00:37:14,790
incredible amount of sense because this

965
00:37:17,359 --> 00:37:16,079
is for the direction of the Bigfoot book

966
00:37:19,010 --> 00:37:17,369
it's been doing I've been thinking a lot

967
00:37:21,950 --> 00:37:19,020
about archetypes lately and what they

968
00:37:23,839 --> 00:37:21,960
are and what they represent and I find

969
00:37:26,030 --> 00:37:23,849
it hard to believe that there's not some

970
00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:26,040
sort of objective external reality to

971
00:37:32,030 --> 00:37:28,710
things like that and if people are all

972
00:37:34,940 --> 00:37:32,040
going to this other consciousness realm

973
00:37:36,530 --> 00:37:34,950
during near-death experiences obviously

974
00:37:38,720 --> 00:37:36,540
not everyone is literally encountering

975
00:37:39,830 --> 00:37:38,730
and knew this all right and that's just

976
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:39,840
depending on your cultural framework

977
00:37:46,099 --> 00:37:43,050
that's happening but that concept of the

978
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:46,109
dog headed st. finds its way into a lot

979
00:37:50,630 --> 00:37:48,330
of major religions I've talked about in

980
00:37:53,210 --> 00:37:50,640
my latest book you know people are

981
00:37:55,670 --> 00:37:53,220
seeing dog men across America which has

982
00:37:57,500 --> 00:37:55,680
no there's no possibility of dog man

983
00:37:59,630 --> 00:37:57,510
being an actual flesh-and-blood cryptid

984
00:38:01,010 --> 00:37:59,640
but people keep on mentioning it and to

985
00:38:04,090 --> 00:38:01,020
me I see that as an expression of these

986
00:38:06,890 --> 00:38:04,100
archetypes so I think that even in

987
00:38:08,930 --> 00:38:06,900
spiritual practices that seem very far

988
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:08,940
removed both geographically and

989
00:38:13,609 --> 00:38:12,210
philosophically and too poorly you will

990
00:38:15,109 --> 00:38:13,619
often see a lot of these things

991
00:38:17,900 --> 00:38:15,119
manifesting and to me that implies a

992
00:38:20,330 --> 00:38:17,910
shared objective external reality and I

993
00:38:22,580 --> 00:38:20,340
mean perhaps Indies were foundational

994
00:38:25,130 --> 00:38:22,590
and a lot of religions forming but I

995
00:38:26,660 --> 00:38:25,140
don't think you can dismiss people who

996
00:38:29,180 --> 00:38:26,670
are actually able to traffic with the

997
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:29,190
Otherworld and go into altered states of

998
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:31,290
consciousness and and are able to

999
00:38:35,540 --> 00:38:33,570
actually sort of confer with the spirits

1000
00:38:38,450 --> 00:38:35,550
which is something that a lot of

1001
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:38,460
different cultures I'll have all had

1002
00:38:43,609 --> 00:38:41,850
methods of doing as well so you know I'm

1003
00:38:46,070 --> 00:38:43,619
kind of on board of that idea that that

1004
00:38:47,510 --> 00:38:46,080
Indies are a motivating force behind a

1005
00:38:49,849 --> 00:38:47,520
religion but I think we should just say

1006
00:38:52,070 --> 00:38:49,859
all sorts of extended consciousness /

1007
00:38:53,750 --> 00:38:52,080
spirit contact I think all has

1008
00:38:56,420 --> 00:38:53,760
contributed into this giant soup that

1009
00:38:58,820 --> 00:38:56,430
we're well great I'll tell you what we

1010
00:39:04,970 --> 00:38:58,830
are going to wrap things up you have to

1011
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:04,980
go get on a plane yeah but you know Josh

1012
00:39:09,230 --> 00:39:07,410
tell folks you've hinted a little bit at

1013
00:39:10,730 --> 00:39:09,240
this new book that's coming out the

1014
00:39:13,970 --> 00:39:10,740
Bigfoot book what is the name of that

1015
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:13,980
where the footprints end so myself and

1016
00:39:19,700 --> 00:39:16,050
Timothy Werner we I've been referring to

1017
00:39:22,550 --> 00:39:19,710
it as the Bigfoot book but it's almost

1018
00:39:26,330 --> 00:39:22,560
completely certain that that it's going

1019
00:39:28,310 --> 00:39:26,340
to be a two-volume work and I may we may

1020
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:28,320
have a mutual friend of ours providing

1021
00:39:34,190 --> 00:39:32,490
the foreword we'll see okay believe that

1022
00:39:36,020 --> 00:39:34,200
hanging out there I heard on another

1023
00:39:38,930 --> 00:39:36,030
podcast who that might be but I'm not

1024
00:39:41,030 --> 00:39:38,940
going to reveal it well you know thinks

1025
00:39:42,260 --> 00:39:41,040
things change and people who are

1026
00:39:43,730 --> 00:39:42,270
approached about stuff and they have

1027
00:39:45,020 --> 00:39:43,740
more time or less time than they thought

1028
00:39:47,930 --> 00:39:45,030
they would so I don't want to say it's a

1029
00:39:50,060 --> 00:39:47,940
done deal but I've got someone that had

1030
00:39:51,790 --> 00:39:50,070
no interest in Bigfoot might be writing

1031
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:51,800
look forward to the Bigfoot Brooks

1032
00:39:55,630 --> 00:39:54,410
let's say that excites me but you're

1033
00:39:57,700 --> 00:39:55,640
gonna kind of book your writing that's

1034
00:40:00,340 --> 00:39:57,710
the perfect person right as someone who

1035
00:40:02,230 --> 00:40:00,350
has no interest because you're saying

1036
00:40:03,670 --> 00:40:02,240
everyone should have an interest and if

1037
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:03,680
you don't have an interest then you're

1038
00:40:07,780 --> 00:40:05,330
not you need to read this book to

1039
00:40:09,670 --> 00:40:07,790
understand why yeah so the topics are

1040
00:40:12,070 --> 00:40:09,680
you know intersections with Bigfoot and

1041
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:12,080
fairy lore Bigfoot and ghost lore

1042
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:15,530
Bigfoot and witches Bigfoot and women in

1043
00:40:19,620 --> 00:40:16,730
white which is something that I never

1044
00:40:22,030 --> 00:40:19,630
thought was a thing taking a look at the

1045
00:40:25,270 --> 00:40:22,040
folklore I mean a Bigfoot in Santa Claus

1046
00:40:26,950 --> 00:40:25,280
which is just mind-blowing but the

1047
00:40:29,410 --> 00:40:26,960
common thread throughout all but is that

1048
00:40:31,570 --> 00:40:29,420
is this wild man archetype in hell the

1049
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:31,580
wild man archetype is consistent with a

1050
00:40:35,830 --> 00:40:33,770
lot of what people report as Bigfoot

1051
00:40:37,300 --> 00:40:35,840
behavior nowadays and even people who

1052
00:40:39,580 --> 00:40:37,310
are into flesh-and-blood Bigfoot's so

1053
00:40:41,710 --> 00:40:39,590
that's gonna be coming out I think we're

1054
00:40:43,930 --> 00:40:41,720
still on track for all of them of this

1055
00:40:45,340 --> 00:40:43,940
year in the meantime I have three other

1056
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:45,350
books at read and feast the brimstone

1057
00:40:49,660 --> 00:40:46,970
deceit and thieves in the night about

1058
00:40:51,460 --> 00:40:49,670
food smells and child abduction in the

1059
00:40:54,580 --> 00:40:51,470
regard to the paranormal respectively

1060
00:40:57,880 --> 00:40:54,590
and a poorly maintained blog but it's or

1061
00:40:59,230 --> 00:40:57,890
Ketchum calm your website is is great so

1062
00:41:01,390 --> 00:40:59,240
people should check it out even if the

1063
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:01,400
blog isn't as up-to-date as they'd like

1064
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:03,890
great stuff really appreciate you

1065
00:41:08,020 --> 00:41:05,810
joining me and we'll just have to do it

1066
00:41:10,570 --> 00:41:08,030
again soon we'll play another round of

1067
00:41:11,860 --> 00:41:10,580
skeptical jeopardy I love it yeah we

1068
00:41:13,420 --> 00:41:11,870
didn't get to have the stuff I wanted to

1069
00:41:15,430 --> 00:41:13,430
so thanks so much for having me out so

1070
00:41:17,410 --> 00:41:15,440
really appreciate it so thanks for

1071
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:17,420
watching this video if it wasn't really

1072
00:41:21,580 --> 00:41:19,850
a video but just an audio stored as a

1073
00:41:23,590 --> 00:41:21,590
video I apologize but there's more

1074
00:41:25,630 --> 00:41:23,600
videos out there as well but please

1075
00:41:27,100 --> 00:41:25,640
check out the skeptical website you can

1076
00:41:28,740 --> 00:41:27,110
see it here we cover a lot of different

1077
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:28,750
stuff you might be interested in

1078
00:41:34,540 --> 00:41:31,730
relating to controversial science and

1079
00:41:37,750 --> 00:41:34,550
spirituality a lot of shows up there

1080
00:41:40,750 --> 00:41:37,760
over 350 of them are so all free all

1081
00:41:42,020 --> 00:41:40,760
available for downloads so do check it